Mapable USA Transcript: 05/19/2021

Understanding the Latest Opportunity Zones Legislation, Financial Planning and Tax Issues

From the May 19, 2021 edition of the Mapable USA podcast.

Ron Costa: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another Mapable USA Podcast, where we put you on the map. This is Ron Costa broadcasting live from the Mapable USA studios in Las Vegas, Nevada. And folks, we’re going to be talking about Opportunity Zones again today. If you’ve got a financial planner, get them on the phone, get them to listen to this podcast with you because it’s going to be really enlightening. We’ve got a great guest, and so, before we get into that, let me introduce Vicki Huchmala from the QOZ Marketplace and the Opportunity Zones Authority Vicki, how are you doing today?

Vicki Huchmala: Doing fabulous, Ron, another great day in Vegas. And we have a great guest. We’ve had him on before and we’re going to talk about new developments in the Opportunity Zone program and talk about his fund, Nest Opportunity Zone Fund, and let’s just get started.

Ron Costa: Yeah, it’s going to be good, absolutely. So, let’s introduce Clint Edgington. Clint is the co-founder of the Nest Opportunity Zone Fund and Beacon Hill Investment Advisory. Clint, how are you doing today?

Clint Edgington: Great, Ron. Thanks for having me on. I appreciate to spend a little bit of time with you and Vicki today and am excited about our conversation.

Vicki Huchmala: We love it.

Ron Costa: Yeah, I’m glad you took the time out to be on the show again, your last show was great. I don’t know if anybody—if they hadn’t listened to you before on the show, maybe we could start off by giving a little bit of your background and a little background on Beacon Hill, and Nest, for that matter.

Clint Edgington: Sure. So, Beacon Hill is our investment advisory firm, and prior to starting an Opportunity Zone Fund, we were a fee-only investment advisory firm. We focus on cash and investment strategies for business owners. We do not have CPAs on staff, but the vast majority of our work and time spent with our business owner clients are due to creating tax strategies and implementing tax strategies. And so, for many folks, they’re surprised that there’s not a lot of proactive questions on the CPA exam, and we work with a bunch of great CPAs that are proactive.  But when I’m talking to someone who owns a business, and they ask me for a hot stock tip, I’m probably not the right guy for him. But as soon as they say, “Hey, I’m making more money than I was before, and gosh, I’m paying a ton of taxes, and my CPA says, ‘Well, it’s a good problem to have.”’

Ron Costa: That’s right.

Clint Edgington: Yeah, that’s when I said, “Let’s talk.” And what we do is we work with them on minimizing as much as we can, within the legal constraints, through various strategies, and we’ll put together maybe 10 strategies, and then we’ll work with their CPA on having the CPA throw out five of them, and then working on implementing the remaining strategies. And that seems to work well for us and our clients. You know, historically, my family and I, we’ve been in real estate for quite a while, and just due to that tax strategy, background in real estate. As I’m reading the Trump’s Tax Cuts and Jobs Act in 2017, that was implemented in 2018, I turned to the final area Sub Chapters G and started reviewing it, it happened that I had my first real capital gain at the time. So my family did, we sold out of a private equity holding. And we had worked with funding a real estate operator, who was now smack dab in the middle of what we call an Opportunity Zone.

And he had just sold his business as well, his rehab business, and he had a capital gain. We said, “Well, we could pay our capital gains tax, or let’s try this thing, it’s what we’ve been doing for a while anyhow.” So, we started that in beginning of 2019. And it was just the three of us. We called it a fund because we have to, but it was really just a partnership and a bank account and some houses and duplexes. And then we opened up to outside clients and kind of work with the auditors and legal and institutional clients and create Nest Opportunity Fund. We started that in 2019, which doesn’t feel like that long ago, but just due to the timeline of legislation, we’re ironically one of the older, multi-asset opportunities zones that are out there now. So, that’s kind of the long story medium-sized for you, that’s exactly where we come from.

Ron Costa: Well, we’re not broker-dealers, or lawyers or accountants, or financial planners. But what I do like about this podcast that we do is that we bring people on who are and know this kind of stuff. And for some reason, I think if you’re a financial planner, if you understand taxes, or you’re a CFP, or whatever it is, when you want to go start your Opportunity Zone for whatever reason, it just gives you a little bit more confidence that you know what you’re doing.

Clint Edgington: Yeah, you know, I talk with our clients, and they’re CPAs and attorneys, and we always talk about how we know the investment world, but in knowing that investment world, really working with the clients more hand in hand, more than typically a CPA or estate planner will. Our job is not to know the estate, the tax laws as well and be able to actually do all the implementation, but our job is to know enough to know when we have an indication of when to bring a specialist and what would be the right specialists. So that’s kind of our space, that mixed with just being a walking to-do list and making sure that what we say, it is going to get done and actually get done, because we generally work with folks who are busy and successful in their lives, and they’ve got more things to do than this. And, frankly, they have realized that one of the easiest ways to bring more money home is not necessarily to produce more wages but to keep more of the money that they earned. And so it is important to them.

Ron Costa: Right. So, let me ask you one of the questions, the biggest question that we get these days, often regarding Opportunity Zones, is from a top-level view of the whole program. Is it working? Is it something that is positive? Do you find that it something that is more positive than negative? Or what do you think about the market health in general?

Clint Edgington: Yeah, great question. It kind of depends on how you define success in this space. I think if you define it as, is capital flowing to these underinvested communities, that wouldn’t have been flowing? I think the answer is certainly. I think there is not as much capital that has flowed into these areas as was projected. However, I think that will probably change relatively soon, because the legislation took a while to become finalized before institutional money comes in, you know, they really want that legislation to be finalized. In addition, it’s stemmed up with capital gains. And 2020 kind of froze that for the vast majority of folks. For example, at Beacon Hill, we see two sources of capital gains that occur in their portfolios for taxable accounts, and also business sales.

So, we’ll have probably three to five owners who will sell their businesses per year. In 2020, we tax loss harvested for all of our clients when the market dropped in February. And so we kind of took the portfolio cap gains off the table for the year. And then, in addition, the business sale market pretty much froze until about September of last year. And anyone who’s ever been involved in a business sale realizes that it’s not a two-month process to get it across the table. I think, 2020 was just a year of very few capital gains. So, ironically, I know nothing about crypto, I know you guys know something about crypto. But, we had maybe a quarter of the new fund investors for Opportunity Zone Fund in December of last year, were folks that had their capital gains in crypto.

And I’ve never talked to most of these people. I don’t know anything about crypto. Our fund is a more conservative offering, which I would have thought would not have been appealing to someone that is buying crypto. So, I think that generally, 2020 would have been the year we’re really kind of kicked off, but just 2020 was weird in so many ways. Many of our business owners were really focusing on their business and supply chain management issues and so this took a backseat.

Yeah, so I think as far as like I said, capital going in, it has been a success, I think less than projected, but if you look at one of the other main criteria is job creation. We want job creation to occur. I don’t have statistics or numbers, but I would say that that probably has been a failure. I think it’s probably twofold. Number one, business development is difficult, and it’s probably more difficult in any census tracks. In addition, 2020 was an issue where people were thinking about making their businesses survive in the new environment, they’re not thinking about tax ramifications of where and how they set up a new business.

In addition, the money flowing in now is mostly real estate, because the OZ legislation is easier to deal with in real estate. It’s just more difficult with business creation. But I would guess that that will change, I would think it would take a little bit longer. But there’s a guy in venture capital in Columbus here, and he said something in one of these presentations I was at, he said, “Yeah, you know what, you real estate guys, you get 10% return, and then you add the benefits for 13% return, well, that’s cute. But you know, in the VC world, if I do 30%, and get that tax free, I’m looking at now I’m going to get a 45% in tax return.”

Ron Costa: Absolutely huge.

Clint Edgington: So, I do think the sophisticated players will, at some point, really start to leverage the legislation and bring jobs to those areas. And, you know, the real estate funds like ours, we bring some jobs to the area, we have people rehabbing and whatnot, but I don’t think that’s really kicked off yet.

Vicki Huchmala: Well, I think that the job creation aspect of the Opportunity Zone program is like the second stage, it was easier to get into real estate and more people saw the advantage of the program in terms of real estate. And now that projects have been developed and more people are understanding the program, now is the next phase, where it goes into the job creation, as well as the business creation to create those jobs that support whatever projects they developed in the real estate aspect. Are you finding that more people are aware of the program than even since December? And are coming to you because they heard about this and want to know more about it, and what is it?

Clint Edgington: You know, I don’t think that I would have a good view of that, because the people that do come to me, inherently are asking about our Options Fund. So, I don’t know the answer to that question.

Vicki Huchmala: Well, what do you think that the future of the program is, especially now that we have a different administration? And now that we see that this administration is planning to raise the capital gains tax? How is that going to impact the Opportunity Zone program, and take it into the future positively or negatively?

Clint Edgington: Yes, so let me break that down into two parts. Now, what do I think the new administration is going to do with Opportunity Zones? I feel like aside from the tax issues, which are obviously very important, the changes, I believe, will be relatively incremental. So, they have signaled that they do want additional reporting, they want kind of more of a review of some of the census tracts and some of the negative press that has been bandied about, talks about the census tract outside of Aspen or whatever it is. So, I think there could be a few census tracts that get changed. There is going to be some work being done with the new census that will occur, and some of the census tracts will change, all the previous investments in old census tracts are going to be fine.

And then there are the additional reporting requirements for the funds. And none of them seem, from what we can tell, to be onerous or significant. In general, the Biden Administration is supportive of the Opportunity Zone Fund, there’s one area that they have signaled where they want to incentivize – I don’t remember the exact phrase and this is how they put this – incentivize working with local municipalities and governments. So, I don’t really know what that means. It’s kind of vague language and I don’t know if that could be good or it could be bad. I hear incentives and it tells me maybe good, but we don’t really have a handle on what that might look like. But that would be affecting the funds only and not the investors.

On the tax side, there are just an absolute plethora of tax changes coming down the line or most likely coming down the line. But as far as the capital gains tax goes, what I think will happen is, it will be more difficult for Opportunity Zone Funds to raise capital, while there is the thought or the legislation of capital gains rates going up in the future. But once that cap gains rates do go up, there will likely be a slowdown in asset sales, so there will be fewer capital gains to go around. But the incentive to defer those cap gains and reduce them, and to get the free cap gain on the OZF becomes much higher. So, I think there’ll be fewer people who have large-cap gains, but those that do will be more incentivized to invest in an OZ Fund.

Vicki Huchmala: Which will only benefit the program in general, because more people will want to defer their tax, especially if the tax is going up to 50% or close altogether, that more people will invest in Opportunity Zones. But then at the same time, those folks who are investing need people like yourself that can advise them into investing in the right projects, because Opportunity Zones all compete with each other to get the funding. And just because you live in a city that has an Opportunity Zone doesn’t necessarily mean you should invest there. And you need to do a lot of due diligence to make sure that you are investing in the right project, in the right city, that is going to be successful 5 or 10 years from now, when the tax deferment actually is realized.

Clint Edgington: Yeah, you’re exactly right. We do due diligence for our clients for OZ funds, and the idea for large-cap gains, putting together a portfolio of Opportunity Zone Funds, inherently, they have a 10-year hold, and liquidity is an issue. So, spending a bit of time upfront makes some sense. And we think of it on a risk metric. Our fund is a very conservative fund; it’s very simple, it’s plain vanilla and most of our investors like that, because they’re generally business owners who are 60 or 70 years old, selling their business and they don’t have an interest in swinging for the fences and maybe striking out. But there are investors who we work with that kind of want to boost up the expected return. So putting together a portfolio for them, I think, makes a lot of sense for folks with seven-figure cap gains.

Vicki Huchmala: And, you know, the traditional investor wants to invest in something like the Nest Fund, because it is safe, and they’re comfortable with it. They don’t want to go out and invest in Bitcoin and learn about what the blockchain is or cryptocurrency because that’s just a little scary. And it’s good to have Opportunity Zone Funds, and it’s good to have those like Nest Opportunity Zone Fund that is comfortable to invest in, and where the people know what they’re doing, and they can rely on that knowledge and they’re safe.

Clint Edgington: Well, yeah, there are different classes of investors we work with, and I’d say, for the majority we work with that are kind of more high net worth, but we think of more as kind of a middle, they’re not ultra-high net worth. And likely, they might use the money in their lifetime or maybe not. But then there is kind of family office groups that have more of an intergenerational approach. They tend to create their own qualified options and funds and have an interest in participating at the subsidiary level. But sometimes not. One of our core anchor investors, a family office, directly invested into our Opportunity Zone Fund. And I find that they tend to have a wider dispersion of interests where they might want to be super conservative, or they might want higher returns and they’re willing to take the risk because, it’s amongst a large portfolio and this isn’t for them or their kid even, it’s for their future generations.

Ron Costa: Clint, are the family offices your typical client?

Clint Edgington: No, I mean, I would say kind of by assets, we’re kind of a third, a third, a third, which means a family office. And, well, it’s more than a third by assets, family office. And then a third-ish being more high-net-worth folks and some businesses, but don’t have a $15 million portfolio. The other third, we do Arista and the fiduciary services for their different corporate retirement plans, and structuring out tax structures.

Ron Costa: Right. Because I would think that if you’re looking at seven, eight-figure capital gains, that’s ultra-high net worth in my book, that’s pretty amazing, that’s a lot of money.

Clint Edgington: Yeah. But also, if somebody has a business that they’ve been working in their whole lives, it’s paid them a decent salary, and maybe they make 400 a year. And this is their one shot, and they sell it for $3 million, you know, like, we’ve been doing it for a long time, they have probably a very low-cost basis. And so, although they don’t have a $2 million cap gain every year, they might have it this year. So, then, we find that people are incentivized to really review and think about taxes, not when they pay high or low taxes, but when it’s high or low, relative to what they’ve previously paid. You know, it kind of shocks the system.

Ron Costa: Yeah, exactly.

Clint Edgington: So, obviously, the majority by numbers of our clients are certainly not the family office. It’s more of the last of the example I just gave. And so, for that person, let’s say they have maybe $3 million, just regular portfolio, IRAs, 401Ks, Cash Balance Plans, whatever it is. They might not want to lock all $3 million up, they might want to talk about, okay, let’s not lock it all up, lock maybe a portion of it up for 10 years and get that tax incentive. But, that’s an interesting conversation right now, you could pay most likely capital gain rate of 20% today, or you can defer that capital gain for six years, and your basis increases by 10%. But as the legislation is written now, you’re going to pay at the rate and effect of time. So, does it make sense for you to do that? And the real answer lies in what do you think the appreciation of this asset is going to be? Because if it appreciates, if the Opportunity Zone Fund does quite well, within that tax-free exit in 10 years, will make up for any of those issues.

If it doesn’t do well, then it won’t, and so what we usually find is, if it’s over a 4% or 5% annualized return, that you’re still better off by doing that quantitatively. But I can’t figure out what’s the value of having it locked up for 10 years, it’s something you know. So if it’s borderline, you probably don’t want to do it.

Ron Costa: You know, when you’re looking at the real estate investments, a lot of times we’re looking at tax benefits, the 1031, has been there for a long time. And everybody uses the 1031 to roll it all over, and people know what that is at this point. But Opportunity Zones are really kind of new. So, some of these guys who are looking at real estate, capital gains, and things like that, do they find it difficult to maybe wrap their minds around, I’m going to invest this money in a fund that may not be specializing in real estate, maybe looking to do business or that kind of thing? Or are they just as interested in tax savings or tax deferment?

Clint Edgington: Yeah, so real estate folks, they generally just are whatever they are, and how they have made monies, probably how they’re going to continue to make money. I’ve not been involved with someone who had a large real estate sale, who wants to invest in an Opportunity Zone Fund that focuses on businesses. That said, we don’t have a specialty analyzing companies that focus on businesses. This is harder to analyze, it’s not our competency. So, I might not be seeing those folks, but we generally see just real estate people who are considering either an OZ fund or are considering doing their own 1031 Exchange.

Usually what I see is it comes down to work versus control. So, if they’re just older, and they don’t want to do the work anymore, they might invest in the OZ Fund. If they’re not, and they want control, they’ll do their 1031. That’s usually where I see it come down on. Because, you know, inherently, this real estate person has done quite well for themselves with real estate and they’ve done it themselves, they’re going to have high confidence in their abilities, and they’re just going to want to do what they’ve always done. There are different benefits and drawbacks to one versus the other. I generally see that that doesn’t usually matter much in their decision-making process.

Ron Costa: Right. And that leads me to the next big question that we always get all the time too, is, these people who are investing in the funds—you mentioned before that liquidity is an issue for a lot of these people, too—are they doing any estate planning with … they don’t make the investment and say, “I will see you in 10 years.” There’s going to be a lot of estate planning going on in this and the tax issues aside, financial planning, it’s not something that somebody just signed a piece of paper and that’s it? It’s got to be a lot of considerations here.

Clint Edgington: Yeah, so we’re a little bit unique in that we have the advisory firm coupled with an Opportunity Zone Fund. So, we kind of are proactive and having that conversation with people like, “Listen, what is the titling under capital gain? Let’s make it the exact same titling” and we will give them information on upcoming state changes. And right now, we’re about to do a proactive reach out to all of our Opportunity Zone Fund investors who we don’t know, or who, the estate changes, potentially coming down the line, it would impact them. And so we would have that conversation. We had a conversation yesterday with one of our investors, and it makes some sense for him to review estate minimization strategies. He’s got an eight-figure net worth, and they’ve done a little bit of estate minimization innovation strategies. But, if either of the two bills that are in the senate now, come down the pike, and he does no additional planning, it would mean if he were to pass away today, it’s a $9 million dollar state tax. If he does nothing, and it sunsets in 2025, he would pay $13 million. And then if Sanders’ plan came in, he pays somewhere upwards of $16 million.

So, right now, we have a really good opportunity to work with folks and in getting some of that money out of their estate, we can use the current gift exemption of $11.7 million per person. So, $23.5 million-ish per couple, we can use that as much as we can now within making sense in real life, and then if the Sanders plan comes down, and it gets dropped to $3.5 million, there’s no clawback of that. But if we wait for the act to get enacted, depending on the timing of the effective dates, it might be too late. And we’re trying to work with clients and telling them is that, you’re going to want to wait, because everybody wants to wait, but everyone is waiting. And so these are not strategies that you walk into your estate planner’s office on day one, and get it turned around in four hours. There’s going to be a line outside of the estate planner’s offices.

So, it makes some sense, maybe not to enact the changes now, but to think through different strategies. In particular, there’s a lot of different estate planning strategies. The Sanders Act would slash intentionally defective grantor trusts pretty significantly. But we can think through implementing some of those strategies now. With your question in particular about the Opportunity Zone Funds, there are some great things we can do with Opportunity Zones. Essentially, that could be something that could be gifted to a grantor trust, and there are 85 different varieties and flavors of grantor trusts and the different ways that they can minimize the valuation of the gift.

But the upside is that you gift something and that value goes into your lifetime gifting exemption, but then the growth that occurs within the grantor trust is outside of your estate. However, the downside is that growth gets paid for, when it eventually is sold by your heirs, so they have a capital gain. So, when you marry a QOF, being gifted to a grantor trust, you get the benefits of both and the negatives of neither in that you do have that initial gift would count against your lifetime gift. But then if you and your heirs put it together, hold it for 10 years, then your heirs would get that tax-free asset.  There’s a lot of great benefits to marrying those two. If you’re definitely going to put some money into the grantor trust, and you’re choosing between them, you should take a long, hard look at the Opportunity Zone Fund, because it really kind of hung in there.

With that said, I would make sure your estate planner has an understanding of the basics of Opportunity Zone Funds, because there are some tricky things about them. And if you ask them what’s an inclusion event, and they say, “Hold on, let me look it up,” you may talk to somebody else.

Vicki Huchmala: Exactly.

Clint Edgington: They could gift it to the wrong type of trust, and that becomes an inclusion event, or, if in a divorce, you have it in your name, and you give that to your spouse as part of the divorce settlement, boom, inclusion event. So, you do want to deal with someone who’s knowledgeable in that area.

Ron Costa: Right. Everything that you just said over the last couple of minutes is the exact reason why everybody should be using a really effective person for their estate planning, it’s got to be done. It’s amazing how many people don’t do this, and you read about it in the news, you are saying, “How could they not do that they have so much money? Oh, my God, that’s crazy.” But I have one more question for you before we close this up, you know, people can invest in Opportunity Zones because they’ve got capital gains through the sale of real estate you mentioned before cryptocurrency, business sales, art, or whatever they got to do these days to make these capital gains to realize these. Once that capital gain gets put into the fund itself, is it treated differently, as far as the entity is concerned, or any kind of tax issues from the IRS? It doesn’t really matter, does it, how it got into the fund as long as it was capital gains, or is there a distinction there?

Clint Edgington: Yeah, there is a distinction. If your fund has both OZ units and non-OZ units as ours does, you have to track the two and the benefits they have. In addition, there are some other smaller quirks that I don’t think would really affect an investor, but it does affect the fund level. So, for example, unlike when you would just put $100 grand in money that already has been taxed into a partnership, you have $100 grand of basis, $100 grand of at-risk basis. If you put a different $100 grand that comes from a capital gain, and by the way, the IRS doesn’t care where the $100 grand comes from, it’s fungible.

But if you deem it $100 grand, and you have an eligible cap gain, and you’ve never gotten taxed on that $100 grand. So, you put that into the fund, and then since you’ve never gotten taxed, you don’t have a basis, there’s no at-risk capital. This is something to talk to the OZ Fund that you work with about. For real estate funds like ours, we were going to send our clients heavy depreciation losses, the first few years, and that’s the strategy that we really kind of work on to accelerate their rates of return, their after-tax rates of return. And if we don’t have that at-risk basis in that fund, then you can’t take that loss. You also need passive gains to offset to take a loss, and the majority of investors do, but you have to have the at-risk basis. So, maybe talk to your funds about, “How are you getting me the at-risk basis?” If they’re telling you they’re going to give you tax losses, that’s a conversation to have because that is unique to Opportunity Zone Funds.

Ron Costa: Yeah, okay, that sounds good. And because Clint, I expect a big capital gains realization my way when the Jets win the Super Bowl in 10 years.

Clint Edgington: Okay. How do you monetize that, Ron? Do you have a long-term sports bookie?

Ron Costa: I’ll tell you, it’s crazy. But anyway, listen, everything that we talked about today, again, just drives home the fact that people have to be aware of these things, and they need to contact people like yourself. So, how do they get ahold of you, Clint, what’s the best way to get to reach you?

Clint Edgington: Yeah, in particular, right now with the capital gains tax rate potentially going up, the Senate parliamentarian just said that they could do a second budget reconciliation. You know, you have to factor mention that the likely increase in capital gains tax rates, the likely increase in estate tax rates, the likely increase in corporate tax rates. If you own a closely held business or concentrated positions and highly appreciated stock and you are considering selling within the next few years, you should definitely reach out to your CPA , if your CPA is proactive, or a planner that’s focused on those areas, and we’d love to talk to anyone who has those issues. Because it makes some sense maybe not to do anything right now, but certainly plan about it. You can reach our offices at 614-469-4685. Or you can just shoot me an email at either, or

Ron Costa: Excellent. I will just link all that stuff in the show notes as well. So, everybody could just click and get it done. And Vicki, is your head spinning with all this information? Boy, how about this?

Vicki Huchmala: It’s spinning so much it’s making me dizzy, Ron. But what I can say, though, is if you are in the position to deal with capital gains, and Opportunity Zones, and where are you going to get the best benefit, it’s vitally important that you go to the right people to advise you and help you. Everybody thinks they can read an article and become an expert on Opportunity Zones, or financial planning, or whatever it is. And they really don’t know anything, and they make a bigger mess for you than if you’d have just done nothing at all. And it’s important to go to people like Clint, who have the knowledge, have the expertise, have the network around them with the important people that everybody needs to do the right thing to make the right plan so that you don’t get stuck, and be very diligent about who you choose as your experts. And here’s one that we’re making it easy for everybody. Call Clint, contact Clint, and let him help you let his group of advisors help you to do the right thing for your situation.

Clint Edgington: Yeah, and to be fair, we stand on the shoulders of giants, we’ve got great subject matter experts around us that we use. But just one other resource that I can offer to your listeners if you have an interest in OZ Funds, I find that it’s very easy to quantify the drawbacks 10-year hold, what if cap gains rates go up. But it’s more difficult to quantify the benefits of the step-up on the basis of 10% and tax rate deferral for six years. So, we have a calculator that we’re happy to run for folks, even if you don’t have an interest in our fund, we’re happy to do it for you. And if you just shoot me an email, or give us a call, you can also speak to Meredith in our office, she helps with that. And we’re happy to turn that around for you, and we’re happy to have a 15-minute call with you and your CPA. And we do that gratis and there’s no obligation. We just like to learn about what different people are seeing.

Ron Costa: Excellent. All right Clint, once again, thanks a lot for being a guest on the show, taking time out to explain to our audience all these really great points. So, we really appreciate and hope to have you on again as well. And Vicki, thanks for co-hosting this episode, it was really great. And folks out there you’re listening to the Mapable USA podcast at, if you go to that website, you scroll down to see all our syndication sources, just pick the one you like best, subscribe and you’ll never miss another one of our episodes. If you want to be a guest on the show like Clint was today, there’s a guest tab on that website, just click on it, fill out the form, we’ll see what we could do about getting you on the show. And then lastly, if you like what you’ve heard, send us an email at, or just comment on whatever page you’re listening to right now. So, thanks for listening. Thanks for your support. We’ll be at your next time with another Mapable USA episode. Have a great week everyone!

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